Auros ([info]auros) wrote,
@ 2004-10-29 01:27:00
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Current mood: productive

Ballot Proposition Summary
Notes on my biases regarding propositions:

By default, unless I can see a really good argument in favor of a proposition, I vote NO. I don't like cluttering up the CA Constitution with silly things, and in an ideal world this kind of stuff ought to be done by our legislature (though I recognize that in many cases, they're terrified of taking strong stands for fear of coming out on the wrong side of public opinion and losing their jobs; easier to just let it go on the ballot and test public opinion directly).

I don't like earmarks, in which a tax is permanently designated for a particular purpose; these taxes are often volatile, which is bad in years where the tax generates a lot of money because it prevents the legislature from shifting the income to other purposes, and potentially even worse in years where the tax under-produces because it becomes politically difficult to move money in from the general fund, because "we already funded it under Prop XYZ". Earmarks are marginally less evil if the funding source is directly tied to the thing being funded.

Lastly, I generally think a bond issue ought to provide the state some kind of benefit. Otherwise, it's like taking out a mortgage to buy somebody else a house -- a nice gesture, but not terribly wise.


1A: Local Gov't Revenues. I haven't made up my mind.

Since Prop 13, the state gov't, in order to balance its budget, has executed a number of accounting tricks that involved fiddling with the budgets of counties and cities. For obvious reasons, this drives those local governments up the wall. As part of a deal with the Gubernator (see 65, below), they've created an agreement under which they let the state pull from their budgets one last time, and then stop doing that. I have considerable sympathy for the argument in favor; it's hard to deal with situations where you're trying to hire new staff for the schools, fire and police dep'ts, etc, when you don't know for certain what your budget is going to be until the end of the annual deadlock created by the requirement to get some of the (stubbornly anti-progressive-taxation) Republicans on board to pass a budget. (Not that I have any biases on that issue or anything. :-P )

On the other hand, it appears to make it somewhat harder for the state to "even out" differences between rich and poor communities (by, say, funding the schools in the poorer communities using some property or sales taxes skimmed from the rich ones). There's also an argument that by ensuring that communities keep all of their sales taxes, they'll have more incentive to allow in stores like Wal-Mart that tend to produce a lot of sales taxes; but I'm not sure I buy that at all. A lot of communities have social pressures against that, regardless of the taxes. And then there's the actual argument in the voter guide, in which the Chair of the Board of Equalization (uh, what is the Board of Equalization, exactly?) suggests that in fact a lot of the localities have, given the opportunity, spent their local fund very poorly (cutting funds for critical services while spending on image -- e.g. a pretty new downtown area in Stockton). It's not clear to me that the best way to deal with that is to have the state take their funding away; if the citizens can't elect a decent local gov't, who says they can elect a decent state gov't? *sigh*

I'm curious to know how [info]mickle leans on this one; if she's leaning NO, even though 1A purports to protect funding and stabilize budgets for localities (which is, in theory, a good thing for schools), I would tend to take that as a strong data point against it.


Prop 59: Public Records, Open Meetings. YES!

Remember the Dick Cheney Energy Commission? The one where he held meetings to decide policy, but refused to let his employers -- the voters of America -- know whom he talked to or what they talked about, even though there plainly was nothing classified or sensitive (except politically) involved? Prop 59 prohibits anyone in the CA gov't from doing stuff like that.


Prop 60A: Surplus Property. YES, though I'm not pleased at how it ended up on the ballot.

This was originally intended as a "sweetener" on Prop 60, but was severed because it was unrelated to that measure. The state owns a lot of real estate. Sometimes it declares a property to be surplus, and sells it. In the past, there have been cases where the state declared a property surplus and sold it, but really only did that to finance its current deficit; then it would buy the property back, at a higher price, a few years later. This is a sneaky way to do the same thing a deficit-finance bond would do, but trades a higher actual cost for avoidance of the political difficulties of a bond. Prop 60A says that, at least until the big $20B deficit-finance bond we already passed in March gets paid off, such surplus property sales would have to go as payments to those bonds; thus, surplus property sales would not increase the general fund in the short-term, and the incentive to do this particular dumb thing would be removed. Money tends to be fungible, and I suspect people could find ways around this if they really tried; but it at least can't hurt.


Prop 61: Children's Hospitals. NO, though I'm waffly. ('Cause, you know -- it's children's hospitals!)

See, the problem with this is that it's the case of taking out a mortgage and giving the money away -- it's a great big bond that gives the money to private institutions. The state gets no tangible capital, and doesn't even gain any oversight over the hospitals involved; the hospitals make capital improvements, and still own the improved facilities. I'd have no problem with a state subsidy for children's hospitals, esp not if it included some oversight rules, and a system for bringing newly-established hospitals into the system and booting out ones that turned out to be poorly-run (overpaid administrators and boards, embezzling, etc; the usual problems that do often crop up with private charities when nobody's looking over their shoulders -- this is, of course, why I'm still a big-guvmint liberal in some ways; the government is easier to hold accountable).


Prop 60: Election Rights of Political Parties. YES, but I'm not terribly happy about it.
Prop 62: Open "Primaries". NO!

Prop 62 alters our electoral system so we have the general election in March (when fewer voters tend to show up). They call this general election a primary, but it plainly isn't -- all parties are on the ballot, potentially with more than one candidate from a party, and everyone can vote for any candidate. Then in the fall, we get a two-person runoff, with the top-two plurality winners from the general election. As I've discussed elsewhere, this is a fabulously bad system. It resulted in eliminating a candidate from the French Presidential election who was probably the Condorcet winner; it got David Duke (a KKK leader) on the final ballot in Louisiana; and its promised benefits (more moderates and independents, despite gerrymandering) don't appear to have actually materialized in the places where it's used -- there are still plenty of wacky extremists in the Louisiana legislature, and there's only one independent in their House of Representatives. We do need to deal with gerrymandering (how about: legislative districts shall be outlined by no more than six segments, each segment being a continuous section of a pre-existing boundary such as a body of water or river, six-or-more-lane highway, county or city border, etc), and with the duopoly and deadlock fostered by our electoral system, but this is not a good way to do that. It may set back the cause of serious electoral reform, and lead to results that confuse and alienate a lot of people. (I should also note that Prop 62 has created some very strange bedfellows -- it's pretty weird to see the arch-conservative Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association agree with liberal groups like the Federation of Teachers and the non-partisan clean-campaigners from Common Cause. All of them oppose 62.)

Prop 60 basically counteracts 62 and keeps the current system, where every party that properly registered to take part in the primary gets to put one candidate on the November ballot. I'm still vaguely waffling on whether to vote NO on 60, on the theory that if 62 gets the majority it needs to take effect, it will be impossible for 60 to overtake it, since you'd have to be pretty dumb to vote for both when the ballot guide quite plainly tells you that they're opposed to each other. But, there are a lot of dumb people out there. I dunno; I don't think it does any serious harm if it passes; it just is kinda pointless, and clutters the state Constitution. :-P


Prop 63: Mental Health Services. YES, because the Chronicle endorsement persuaded me.

This creates a 1% tax on income over $1M. Now, I'm not opposed to soaking the rich. And this is a good cause. However, it's the very worst kind of earmarking; there are about 26k people in the state who make that much, so it would only take a thousand of them deciding to move (even in name only, by buying a house and designating it as their residence) to Nevada or Washington (both states having no income tax) to make a significant dent in the revenues from the tax. Also, the very high end incomes are the most volatile; they go way, way up during booms, but those highs aren't reliable. This isn't so bad if you're just putting the money into the general fund (in a downturn, you expect the general fund to tighten up), but when it's earmarked, it devastates funding for that particular thing. (Also, having this tax in place would make it harder to actually get that 1% hike on the top marginal rate and put the money into the general fund, where it belongs.)

On the pro side are two facts: a) it's funding something we promised to fund when we killed the old system, and b) the current situation is pretty dire. Anyone who's been accosted by a mentally-ill homeless person in SF, and seen the sheer number of homeless around the city, knows this.


Prop 64: Lawsuit Limitations. NO.

This would require a citizen who wanted to, say, bring a suit against a company that polluted his neighborhood by dumping toxins in the local river to prove in court that he, personally, had suffered "injury" in the form of bodily harm or financial loss. It would remove one of the tools that has, over the last several decades, allowed environmental and consumer-interest groups to make CA a leader in environmental and consumer-protection standards for the country. It's part and parcel of the usual "tort reform" BS -- the right-wingers think wealthy businessmen should be able to do whatever they want, and the public should have no right to object.


Prop 65: NO. This proposition has been replaced by 1A. If you favor 65, you should vote for 1A instead. Otherwise, you should vote against both.


Prop 66: Softening "Three Strikes". YES.

You may've heard about the case in which a guy whose third strike was shoplifting a bunch of children's videos was sentenced to 25 years in jail. This law alters the definitions of what counts as a strike. It leads to no automatic releases -- those whose records would be altered such that they no longer have three strikes would have to request a resentencing hearing, in which they'd waive double jeopardy, so prosecutors could re-open discussion on old crimes to bring up new aggravating factors. The parade of horribles provided by DAs are incredibly disingenuous, and so far as I can tell are simply intended to inspire fear and hysteria so that the prosecutors can maintain the largest amount of discretion to threaten people with higher sentences and drive harder plea bargains. The DA who was on Forum the other day lied about what crimes were being removed as strikes -- I paged into the full text of the proposition, in the back of the voter guide, and a couple of things she claimed would not be strikes (such as battery during an attempted-but-failed rape) are, in fact, still listed as strikes after the change.


Prop 67: Funding Emergency Medical Services by Taxing Phones. YES, though I don't like it much.

There is a serious crisis in CA (and elsewhere) in emergency care -- emergency rooms are losing a lot of money because the uninsured don't get any care til they show up at the emergency room. As a result, hospitals end up closing down their emergency services, denying care even to those who do have insurance.

There's a marginal tie between phones and emergency rooms -- specifically, 911 service. And 67 will extend the surcharge for 911 service to cell phones, which don't currently pay into that system, even though they are supposed to be integrated into it soon (which is itself an expensive project for the 911 service providers). But that's only a small portion of the funds involved in 67; most of the money would go straight to the ERs, to cover their services to the uninsured.

Obviously I think a better long-term solution would be to provide real insurance to those people, so they could get preventive care. And possibly if Kerry's health plan passes, that'll happen, and we can cut the Prop 67 surcharge. But for now, this is a tolerable way to deal with a serious problem.


Prop 68: Slots for Race Tracks. NO.
Prop 70: Tribal Gaming Compacts. NO.

A deal was brokered between the state and the Indian gaming industry to give a portion of their revenues to the state, in exchange for not letting other folks in the state start competing. Prop 68 is some businesses trying to override that agreement, to pad their own pockets. It would lead to large new gambling establishments in locations like the track that sits right near Berkeley and Albany -- the implications for traffic are mind-boggling. Prop 70 is a couple of the tribes trying to override their side of the deal, to exempt their casinos from gov't oversight (including environmental and labor regulations) and even prevents the CA gov't from auditing to determine whether the income of the casino is being properly reported.


Prop 69: DNA Sample Database. NO.

Currently, CA keeps a database of DNA of all convicted felons. I might not object to expanding this even to all indicted felons. But Prop 69 expands it to everyone who is even arrested on suspicion of a felony. If you've ever participated in a public protest in which some people were hauled away by the cops -- those folks would, under Prop 69, now be in the DNA database. As the database gets more saturated, it becomes more likely that there will be false positives leading to innocent people getting harassed. The method for getting oneself out of the database has pretty plainly been made cumbersome with the willful intent of keeping people in there even if they're exonerated. (Reminds me of the story, a while back, about a pair Green Party activists who found themselves on the No-Fly List, and were unable to get off of it, because no individual or agency acknowledged responsibility for handling requests from innocent people that they be removed.) Also, there are very poor restrictions on the use of the database, so information in it could, in the long run, potentially be used to discriminate against people in hiring, or passed to health insurers, or unpleasant things like that. All in all, a bad idea.


Prop 71: Stem Cell Research. YES, but I'm still waffling a bit.

I always wanted to support this one, but almost talked myself into voting against. I'm all for medical research, and I'm all for slapping the president in the face for his thoroughly idiotic ravings about "deep moral questions".

I had been given the impression that it did not ensure that a) the money gets spent in California, and b) the state gets a chunk of the patent royalties from the research it will be funding. It turns out these two impressions were false, so that's good. If that hadn't been the case, I would've voted against.

On the other hand, it's a huge bond at a time when our debt rating is only one level above junk bonds, and when a lot of people think we probably will need at least one more bond issue to finance our debts if we don't want to cut deeply into stuff like schools and healthcare.

In the end, our votes may be irrelevant -- last I heard, polls were showing 71 winning by a huge margin. If you want to protest the idea of adding $3 billion to our already $20 billion in debts, vote against. On the downside, your protest may get interpreted as fundy opposition to the research. If you prefer to register a protest against Bush/Xian stupidity, and you are, like me, waffly but kind of inclined in favor anyways, then vote for.


Prop 72: Health Care Coverage. YES.

This measure requires businesses that employ more than 50 people to supply healthcare coverage to their employees. There are complaints that it may make it harder for marginally-employed part-time workers to find jobs at all, since if companies have to provide healthcare even for that type of worker, it will make more sense to just spend the effort on finding one full-time worker instead of a few more flexible part-timers. It's not entirely clear to me that this is an argument against; don't we want more people to have stable full-time jobs? OK, I get that some people -- typical examples are students and single mothers -- tend to have a hard time working full hours over long periods. But is the temp market really that bad, that we'd favor reducing the number of full-time positions -- potentially consigning some people who want full-time work to part-time or short-term positions -- to help out those who actually want those positions?

The other arguments -- about how it will reduce employment among all low-income workers -- follow the usual pattern for arguments against minimum wage increases, and improvements in labor conditions in general; as such, I'm pretty much ignoring them.

In any case, this is a law that passed in the legislature and got signed by the governor, having gone through plenty of scrutiny on whether it was going to have some kind of horrible impact on CA businesses and devastate the economy. Apparently it only affects a small minority of the businesses covered, since the others already do provide healthcare. Then, having failed to block it the usual ways, some large business interests -- Wal-Mart and McDonald's are of course involved, since they don't like spending anything on their employees, if they can avoid it -- pushed the measure onto the ballot to try to defeat it there. I believe the CA gov't will be providing some tax credits and offering to sell access to the insurance plan it provides state employees, but opponents' claims about a "government run" health scheme are the usual right-wing scare tactics, same as Bush's characterization of Kerry's similar national plan (which, in the long run, if it passes, might render 72 obsolete).


That's all, folks. I'm voting Democratic across the board for the federal and state-leg positions. I haven't had time to make up my mind on the judicial position, the school board, or the local measures -- locals who have opinions on those are welcome to comment.

Friends posting on these matters (let me know if you want to be added): jrtom.



(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Prop 66
[info]hukuma
2004-10-29 08:29 am UTC (link)
The counter-argument to Prop. 66 read like politics at its worst. "If you vote for this proposition,
convicted murderers and rapists will walk free and attack your children!" (Though I'm reading now that this was largely how Bush Sr. beat Dukakis.) At least the rebuttal was funny.

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Re: Prop 66
[info]auros
2004-10-29 01:54 pm UTC (link)
Yup. Here's a bit on the Willie Horton nonsense.

The Republicans have, of course, never given up on this tactic. "If you vote for John Kerry, a terrorists will strike -- or maybe wolves will eat you!" (Have you seen the "Wolves" ad? It'd be quite funny, if I wasn't afraid that there are voters out there who are dumb enough to be swayed by it.)

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[info]fyfer
2004-10-29 10:54 am UTC (link)
Thanks for posting all this. I've come to the same conclusions on most or all of them. Like you, I'm annoyed by California's overuse of ballot measures. Direct government might be a nice concept, but the way it's implemented means that the voters (us) don't get to see the sort of back-and-forth that you'd have in the legislature about what particular wording to use, etc, so we get stuck choosing between a few suboptimal choices.

I still haven't decided about 71, either. I should look more closely at how the actual funding will work. If it were just to fund university research, I'd be happier, but I get the sense that a lot of it will go to industry. I don't know how much industry research is currently funded by NIH grants (this measure is trying to make up for the lack of NIH funding for stem cells, so that seems most equivalent).

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2004-10-29 10:58 am UTC (link)
71, if enacted will go mostly to industry, and guys buying snickers bars. There's a lot less control of how the money is going to be spent then is being claimed, and I'm voting no on principle of I want to *know* my money is being spent on what I voted for.

I'm sure it makes me look like a fundy, but I'd rather vote no now, and have a *better* initiative come to pass, if I can.

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[info]auros
2004-10-29 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Erm, I don't think it's true that there's no oversight; they have a board to distribute the money, which so far as I can tell is pretty similar to the board that my dad sits on to distribute John Sperling's money to aging research.

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[info]auros
2004-10-29 02:04 pm UTC (link)
Yep. Here's the details on the board:

The institute would be governed by a 29-member Independent Citizen’s Oversight Committee (ICOC), comprised of representatives of specified UC campuses, another public or private California university, nonprofit academic and medical research institutions, companies with expertise in developing medical therapies, and disease research advocacy groups. The Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Treasurer, Controller, Speaker of the Assembly, President pro Tempore of the Senate, and certain UC campus Chancellors would make the appointments to the ICOC.


The number of political figures involved makes it rather more likely that some good research will get rejected, than that shoddy research will get funded. (Political figures on research boards tend to knee-jerk away from approving grants, since they want to be seen as fiscal disciplinarians. The scientists on such a board have to take a presentation that's persuaded them, and then convert it into a simplified-but-still-persuasive version that the non-scientists can grok.)

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2004-10-29 04:31 pm UTC (link)
I didn't say no oversight, I said not as much as they're claiming. ;)

Although my reading of the bill was a while ago.

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[info]auros
2004-10-29 01:56 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind so much having it go to industry, as long as we really do keep a state interest in resultant patent royalties, and so long as the industry is creating jobs in CA -- biotech has the potential to do for the state in the next twenty years what computers did in the previous twenty.

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[info]fyfer
2004-10-29 02:08 pm UTC (link)
I don't inherently mind it going to industry. However, my impression from stem cell researchers I know is that a lot of the essential work needs to be done in pure research settings first.

Biotech companies don't usually get much NIH/government funding in any area, as far as I know, so why should they get it for this one specific thing? I don't think there's currently any good system out there that results in a government funding agency getting royalties from discoveries made by companies it funds.

It's an interesting model, and one that might work well with proper oversight, but I'd be much happier with the proposal if it were just trying to make a state equivalent of the NIH to fund basic research proposals that the NIH won't fund. If someone convinces me it will be the same as that, in effect, I'll probably vote for it.

(I can think of a few biotech companies that have won competitive NIH grants for basic research. I'd be very curious to know how that affects their business. I guess I know who to ask to find out, at least.)

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[info]auros
2004-10-29 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Well, clearly universities do manage to get some money out of licensed research stuff -- $1.1B in 2001, according to the first of these two articles:

The Fruits of University Research: Licensing revenues and patent lawsuits boost institutions' gains.
Patents benefit University; researchers earn royalties.

I agree that stem-cell research is still in its infancy, and basic research is necessary; but I don't see that this prohibits that, and given that more than half of the scientists on the board will be from UC and from "another public or private California university", I have trouble imagining that there won't be a pretty big chunk of money allocated for university-centric research.

I still have qualms about racking up debt, but I think in terms of what the measure does, it's pretty well designed. (I suppose I could forward the text to my dad, and see if he has time to look at it over the weekend.)

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[info]fyfer
2004-10-29 03:29 pm UTC (link)
Oh, universities certainly benefit a lot from licensed research. That's why they have such good patent lawyers (the UC lawyer working with my lab actually made a useful suggestion to improve the science). Universities don't fund that much research themselves, though; they're making profit off government funding (for better or for worse). This would move it back to the government.

This wouldn't prohibit basic research, and I'm sure a lot of the money will go to it, but here's my perspective, with a number of assumptions that could be wrong:

Biotech's funding model is usually not government grants.
A university lab's funding model is usually government grants.
Thus, universities currently have more trouble getting stem cell funding.
However, the closer to a profitable product the funded research is, the more the state will earn back from it.

So, the economic argument is on the side of funding biotech research, but what's really missing in the US right now is something that funds basic university research on stem cells without an eye on profits, just like the NIH does for other basic science.

Given that the money has to come from somewhere, and California doesn't have too much of it, I can't blame them for wanting to set it up in a way more likely to be self-supporting. It's probably a good idea. It's just slightly different than I first heard it described, which was as an alternative to NIH funding.

Does that make sense? I think we essentially agree on this - I'm just trying to clarify what I said earlier. I feel like I'm in a position to know enough that I think I know a lot, but probably without actually knowing a lot. ;)

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[info]auros
2004-10-29 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Ah, yeah, I follow you now...

My sense, though, is that the money will get spread between biotech "investments", and straightforward grants to university labs. And really, I can even see some merit in the idea of the NIH taking in a small share of the revenues generated for universities from patents that were based on research that it funded -- say, 10% if the research was entirely funded by NIH, or a fraction of that 10% proportional to how much of the cost of the study was funded by them if there were other sources.

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Prop 1A - maybe you can help me!
[info]arkibet
2004-10-29 11:07 am UTC (link)
Can you help me with Prop 1A?

First, how are Property taxes currently used? Do they normally go to the state? Or were they always supposed to be used for local agencies? If it's a HUGE amount of money that will suddenly be lost from the State budget, then we're gonna have to make up that difference somewhere else.

I didn't like the open ended clause in the third amendmend of 1A. The local agencies can dredge up all the unpaid mandates from the founding of the state and demand a payment plan be created to pay it back. Not knowing what that amount is makes me nervous... while I expect a claim from 1930 not to be significant, I can only guess at what the last 4 years look like. Again, if the sum total of money that has to be accounted for in the State budget is significant enough, it could cripple or weaken recovery/growth.

The thing that really doesn't matter to me is the vehicle registration fees. I don't know what % they're at now. They're just trying to guarantee an amount. You can budget on things like that.

1A can lead to better and more responsible budgeting, which I like. But there's some things in it I just don't understand the implications of, which is what makes me nervous.

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Prop 1A
[info]auros
2004-10-29 02:27 pm UTC (link)
I'm not actually 100% sure of all of this, but here's my understanding:

By default, there are three major sources of revenue for local gov'ts -- local sales taxes (added on top of the state's already-high sales tax), property taxes, and the Vehicle License Fees collected at local DMVs. There's also parcel taxes, but they're not usually an ongoing thing -- they're used as one-shots to fund local projects in the lettered Measures you see on the ballot, similar to how bonds are (usually) used at the state level.

Prop 13 capped the property tax at 1%, and gave the state the right to futz with the allocation of its revenues. As a result, there have been occasions when localities have gotten shafted, having their expected revenues siphoned off to the general fund.

Prop 65 was an effort to pull the plug on this provision of Prop 13. It has been abandoned in favor of the deal worked out in 1A, in which we allow borrowing from the localities for two more years to balance the budget for now, and then quit doing it.

I'm guessing the following is not news to you, but I'm putting it in just in case there are readers who don't know the term "unfunded mandate": 1A also says that the state can't come up with a program, and then tell the localities to find a way to fund it; if the state wants the program, the state has to find the funding. Aside from the fact that unfunded mandates have long been an issue in relations between the states and the federal gov't as well, and pretty much everybody seems to agree they're bad, this also ought to imply more even funding distribution for this kind of program -- it's harder for a poor community to come up with money to deal with the mandates while preserving critical services, and the mandates often include punishments (such as withdrawal of funding for programs that were funded) if the locality refuses to comply.

Now, to address your point: The relevant part of the full text of 1A begins: "SEC. 6. (a) Whenever the Legislature or any state agency mandates a new program or higher level of service on any local government..." (Emphasis added.) So it looks to me like your concern about the state having to fund past mandates is a non-issue.

I agree on the VLF fees -- they're currently distributed by some sort of formula that's supposed to roughly return to a community a certain portion of the VLFs collected on vehicles in that community. 1A just sets a floor beneath which the legislature may not lower that portion.

Again, my chief worry is what effect 1A would have on the ability of the state to play Robin Hood to help struggling schools -- e.g. moving money from richer suburbs like Richmond to poorer ones like Emeryville, or from Campbell and Cupertino into San Jose.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Prop 1A
[info]arkibet
2004-10-29 04:39 pm UTC (link)
OH! It's confusing.. it's 3(b)(2)... I took out the parts to make it more readable.

SEC. 6. (a) Whenever the Legislature or any state agency mandates a new program or higher level of service on any local government, the State shall provide a subvention of funds to reimburse that local government for the costs of the program or increased level of service, except that the Legislature may, but need not, provide a subvention of funds for the following mandates:

(3) Legislative mandates enacted prior to January 1, 1975, or executive orders or regulations initially implementing legislation enacted prior to January 1, 1975. (b) (2) Payable claims for costs incurred prior to the 2004-05 fiscal year that have not been paid prior to the 2005-06 fiscal year may be paid over a term of years, as prescribed by law.
***
So wouldn't that mean that programs run after 1975 that were mandated and unpaid for, not covered under the current exemptions, prior to the 2004-05 fiscal year, have to be paid?

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Re: Prop 1A
[info]auros
2004-10-29 05:02 pm UTC (link)
I really wish they had good indentation on the full-text listing, or had at least used more different numbering styles (Roman numerals or something). It'd make it easier to untangle this stuff. It looks to me like you need to read 6a3b2 in context with 6a3b1. Together, they're saying that in every future fiscal year X > '04-'05, the state will be on the hook for the costs of its mandates in the year X+1, and for costs imposed in '04-'05 (the current financial year) it can pay the costs over a period of several years. The exception about "that have not been paid prior to '05-'06" is redundant; obviously, if it pays them by then, it won't need to pay them later.

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Re: Prop 1A
[info]arkibet
2004-10-29 05:33 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you on the indentations...

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Re: Prop 1A
[info]arkibet
2004-10-29 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Oh and thanks for the clarification on Prop 13... that's what I really wanted to know! :)

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[info]mickle
2004-10-29 12:50 pm UTC (link)
I'm favoring 63, mostly because the antis annoy me. (I am managing to control most of my "Schwarzenegger's against? Then sign me up!" tendencies, though.)

I need to finish re-reading 1A and some of the arguments about it. In theory, I favor it but I agree that there's a concern it will end Robin Hood school equalization (which doesn't happen now, actually, but the state Constitution presently mandates equal funding for schools except for the basic aid exemption). Still, if 1A would make it more difficult to try RH (or end basic aid funding, like Davis tried), it's no good to me. I'll post my choices this weekend.

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[info]sashamalchik
2004-10-29 04:37 pm UTC (link)
Our common friend pointed me to your analysis just after I posted a similar thing myself, and perhaps I could do my bit in tilting your opinion FOR 63 - like you've done in tilting mine against 64 :)
Thanks.

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[info]zhaneel69
2004-11-01 09:34 am UTC (link)
My responses (long)

Prop 60A: While I like the main thrust of this, I don't like what they do with the money after the first bond is repaid. It goes into a special account with no set purpose instead of back into the general fund. That makes me worry about embezzling or otherwise strangely earmarking funds so we can't deal with budget changes after we pre-paid the nasty 15 billion bond.

Currently, CA keeps a database of DNA of all convicted felons.

Wrong. It keeps a database of all newly convicted felons. So the ones already in before this started didn't get tagged. Just as a note.

If you've ever participated in a public protest in which some people were hauled away by the cops -- those folks would, under Prop 69, now be in the DNA database.

Umm... what? Protesting is a felony now? Was pretty sure it was a misdemenor.

Also, there are very poor restrictions on the use of the database, so information in it could, in the long run, potentially be used to discriminate against people in hiring, or passed to health insurers, or unpleasant things like that.

Nope. There are LOTS of restrictions on the use of the database currently which wouldn't change under this law. This info would not be released to the public and would only be availble to the DA's and sheriff's, so it wouldn't "get out" and be used against people. Not that you can currently discriminate on DNA anyhow as we don't know enough about the genes...


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[info]auros
2004-11-01 10:24 am UTC (link)
On 60A, I've just read the full text. It's not creating a new fund, it's mandating that the sale of surplus properties deposit funds into an existing fund which is basically a "rainy day" fund -- the Special Fund for Economic Uncertainties. This is a fund which, in order to raid it, you have to include the withdrawal in the annual budget, which has to pass by two-thirds vote. I think the budget requirements should be lowered, personally, but I wouldn't object to having the rainy-day fund kept at a two-thirds level, to make sure that we only withdraw from it when it's really critical. (I suspect they emptied it in the most recent budget -- o/w the big bond would've had to be more like $20B, not $15B.)

On 69, OK, possibly you're right about it being only people being convicted, but I was under the impression that even people who were convicted in decades past were being added to the DB as they were released. In any case, that's an irrelevant detail. And no, of course protesting isn't a felony -- it's not a crime at all, it's a 1st Amendment right! But many of the protestors at the GOP convention this year were rounded up on suspicion of committing felonies (such as conspiracy to commit various sorts of looting, incitement to violence, etc). The point is, Prop 69 gives the police a blank check to get you into the DNA DB, simply by saying they suspected you might do something bad.

As for restrictions on use -- they're not terribly well enforced (information that was officially private has been leaked across boundaries between gov't and corporatiosn, in both directions, on many occasions), and there's nothing in Prop 69 that would add anything to the Constitution to enshrine those restrictions, which means they could be changed either by an act of the legislature, or possibly even an executive order from the governor (since law enforcement is an executive power).

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[info]zhaneel69
2004-11-01 10:42 am UTC (link)
Okay, so it is an existing fund. That makes me happier. However, I'm still against putting the money somewhere we can't touch it until we are really badly off instead of just leaving going back to the General Fund like it does now (or am I wrong on that too?). I am all for a Rainy Day fund. However, I don't think we should kill our general fund to make a rainy day fund. That just seems silly.

Unless said protestors were actually indicted AND charged on suspicion of felony, they wouldn't be entered. People are arrested all the time for suspicion but not charged, and therefore they wouldn't be tested. They have to be charged with the offense, and that takes evidence, not just suspicion. And they have said you can get out. I believe they are making it more transparent than the hellious "no-fly" list which no can seem to access.

As this is the same database as the thumbprints one and there hasn't been a leakage that I'm aware of, I'm reasonably certain the likelihood is low and any possible leakage would be taken care of in an appropriate manner.

Zhaneel

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[info]auros
2004-11-01 10:49 am UTC (link)
Read my full argument on 60A -- the whole point is that we don't want the sale of surplus property used to pump up the general fund, because of cases in the past where they've done that, and then bought the property back at a higher rate. This has the same effect as a bond issue (pay more later to settle a current deficit), but it's sneakier.

And you're wrong on 69 -- read the full text. Starting in 2009, anyone arrested on suspicion of a felony would be entered in the DB.

As for private info leaking, two examples I can name offhand -- a couple of the airlines passed passenger lists (including addresses and the like) to the gov't a couple of years ago, and a CA Health and Human Services DB was ripped off by hackers this year. Our gov't does not yet have a security model for storing our data that is anything resembling adequate.

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[info]zhaneel69
2004-11-01 10:57 am UTC (link)
If that is the money has been used in the past for 60A, I see your argument. Thanks for more of the background and debating with me.

Where in the text do you see the suspicion?

I see Section 3, Number (2) Part (C) being:

Commencing on January 1 of the fifth year (2009) following enactment of the act that added this subparagraph, as amended, any adult person arrested or charged with any felony offense.

Maybe I'm being obtuse and just not versed in legalese, but that doesn't read as suspicion, to me. Is this where I'm wrong or are you looking somewhere else?

Zhaneel

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[info]auros
2004-11-01 11:05 am UTC (link)
No, that's exactly it. "arrested or charged" is inclusive. It means that you are required to submit DNA for the DB if you are simply arrested by the cops on suspicion of something (with no charge); and also if there's a warrant issued for your arrest (on a specific charge). The latter I support. The former, I consider to be way, way over the line of what's appropriate.

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[info]auros
2004-11-01 10:51 am UTC (link)
Oh, also on 60A, it's worth noting that in most years, sales of surplus property are not a big part of the general fund, so it's not like diverting the money from that is going to "kill" the general fund...

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[info]erg
2004-11-02 01:12 am UTC (link)

Just to clarify: When protesting, you're not charged, often, with a single crime, you can be charged with multiple issues, which add up to a felony and this would force people doing honest dissent to plea bargain to avoid having their D.N.A. sampled.

I believe it's being said, if the powers which be decide not to honor your request to be removed, there's no burden for them to do so: They say no, there's no appeal, done and over with.

Also, all that has to happen is the person is arrested for a felony. Skip the "suspicion of" part, the police are under little to no obligation to do that, it's a courtesy they do for their own paperwork woes. This, would give them a reason to go forward & like I said, it gives them a hammer.


Given the "leakage" which has happened with U.C.S.F. and U.C.B., I can assure you, there is no "taking care of it." Once the cat is out of the bag, it's all about hindsight damage control, which does nothing for those effected. Also, the organisations we're talking about are beholden to the Feds, so any writ would be honoured & under the current laws, no disclosure is required.

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[info]zhaneel69
2004-11-01 09:36 am UTC (link)
PS: My longer overall comments are here

Zhaneel

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