Auros ([info]auros) wrote,
@ 2008-02-08 02:06:00
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Current mood: angry

We now have an estimate on the number of voters disenfranchised in Los Angeles: 94,500
See the Sacramento Bee's editorial page:

A major voting disaster Tuesday shows the pitfalls of having each of the state's 58 counties set its own rules and ballot designs. Voters in Los Angeles County who belong to no party ("decline-to-state" voters) and who wanted to vote in the Democratic presidential primary on Tuesday got a raw deal.

Where most counties simply give nonpartisan voters a party ballot at their request, Los Angeles County gives nonpartisan voters a separate ballot that requires voters to fill out a bubble for the presidential candidate of their choice – and a second bubble for a political party.

Many voters do not see and do not fill out the second bubble – and, thus, their votes do not count.

The scale of disenfranchisement is huge – 94,500 of 189,000 decline-to-state votes. That's half of the nonpartisan ballots. By comparison, in the infamous Florida "butterfly ballot" debacle in the 2000 presidential election, 19,120 Palm Beach County ballots went uncounted because of the bad ballot design.


The same number is reported by the SFChronicle, and it lines up nicely with my own guess yesterday, based on the fact that only 10% of the votes in the Dem presidential race came from DTS voters, when registration figures suggest that they should've been at least 20% of the votes. (At my own precinct, they were closer to 30%.)

There were also statewide issues with poorly-educated pollworkers either forcing DTS voters to vote provisionally, or turning them away entirely. And the system-wide problems with absentee DTS voters getting the NP ballot (with some of them submitting that ballot, not realizing that the proper procedure would be to surrender it at a polling station in order to vote there; if they submitted the NP ballot and then tried to separately vote at a polling station, unable to surrender their NP ballot, they'd have to vote provisionally, and the provisional would almost certainly be rejected).

My guess is that all of this tallied up would not overcome the difference between Obama and Hillary on the popular vote across CA. However, it would be enough to overcome the difference between their popular vote nationwide on Super Tuesday (which appears to have been under 100k -- the exact number depends on what source you look at and how many votes had been tallied when they reported; Time says it was around 50k, and I think I remember hearing 85k on the radio) and would be enough to shift the delegate count in CA towards Obama by a substantial number -- enough to mean that Obama won significantly more delegates on Super Tuesday than Hillary did. (He may've already just barely won more, but the exact count is still in flux as assorted caucus math is worked out.)

Courage Campaign is running a petition to the LA registrar to count NP votes in the Dem race, even if they failed to fill in the double bubble. After Florida, and after Donna Frye losing in San Diego because some GOP judge felt that writeins for "Donna Fry" weren't clearly enough for her, I'm sick of seeing elections tainted by systems that refuse to count votes where the voter's intent is dead obvious. We need to not only count all the votes in this race, we need a fracking Federal Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the right of the voter to have their vote counted as long as the intention is clear, even if it doesn't conform to the exact procedure implemented by lazy, incompetent, or malicious registrars (I'm looking at you, L.A., and at Theresa LePore of Palm Beach) and Secretaries of State (Ken Blackwell and Katherine Harris).

ETA: OK, so I realized I should think through a little more math. I'm having trouble finding detailed exit polling covering the breakdown of DTS vs Dem Party votes in the CA primary, but the numbers I could find (pre-election polling and info on races in other states) says Obama was losing to Clinton among Dems by about 5 points, but winning among DTS voters by 9. If you figure there are a few votes for minor candidates, then we might see the 94k votes break out to 50 for Obama and 40 for Clinton, for a net move of +10k to Obama. Which is probably only enough to shift about two delegates, though the details would depend on where the votes were in LA, and how close particular congressional districts were to the point at which a delegate changes hands.

ETA: Actually, according to this, nationwide results had Obama up 20 points among independents. So that would mean moving his total about +20k, out of a pool of a million, which is about two percentage points... Maybe 3-4 delegates transferred. And if it's Obama up four, Clinton down four, that would put them tied for elected delegates -- the last AP count I saw had them separated by eight.


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[info]evangoer
2008-02-08 03:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm very hesitant about Constitutional Amendments. But sadly I think you're right that we actually do need an amendment for this. (Although as far as I'm concerned, party primaries would be free to use whatever doofus system they please, if they didn't want to piggyback off the "real" election system.)

A well-run election costs money. We just don't take this stuff seriously enough.

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[info]densaer
2008-02-08 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for following this.

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[info]darcydodo
2008-02-08 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I've got a tangential but unrelated question:

A friend of mine said that she was registered Green and hadn't realized until she got to the polling place, and then she couldn't get a Democratic ballot. So she put Obama as a write-in on her Green ballot.

Do votes like hers actually get counted as being for Obama?

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[info]plymouth
2008-02-08 05:18 pm UTC (link)
Due to the way the party system works, no. That vote would actually count towards nominating Obama for the *Green* party slot. And since he's not a qualified write-in candidate for that party that would mean it would not count at all.

What's even worse than that are the people who showed up at the polls to find that they were registered with the "American Independent Party" - they thought they had registered as independents and were really not happy when they were told that as members of an actual party they were not allowed a ballot for a different party. I'm convinced that a good 90% of people who are registered as AIP are victims of this particular flaw and that the AIP should be forced to change the name of their party.

Your friend at least at SOME point would have had to have intentionally selected the green party registration. Hopefully the pollworkers offered her a registration form so she could at least fix her registration for the next election.

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[info]darcydodo
2008-02-08 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's what we figured — and I know it happened to other people, too. People who in the last election voted Green because they didn't want any of the candidates, and then didn't know or didn't think about the fact that they would have to change their party affiliation to vote for a Democrat in the primary.

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[info]ef2p
2008-02-08 05:36 pm UTC (link)
Hopefully the pollworkers offered her a registration form so she could at least fix her registration for the next election.

I actually ran out of voter registration forms. I had enough ballots, but not enough registration forms.

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[info]auros
2008-02-08 06:06 pm UTC (link)
I think we were down to just one or two left. And we handed out several English/Chinese, not just the default English/Spanish.

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[info]erg
2008-02-11 05:23 am UTC (link)
They didn't offer me one, and I was seen as being Green, which I don't recall having set up, but I could have. Then they gave me a provisional Dem ballot when I didn't see the person I wanted to vote for on mine. (By the guy who was running the polling place, their lead person.)I did check, the bubble at the top, but he didn't tell me I had to, he told me that was optional.

When I got home, I called the elections department and they told me they'd call him, to tell him to stop this practice, but that I couldn't go back to vote as an Independant; once voted, it's illegal to vote again, even if all involved know it's a mistake. Also, they took their time to call me back to confirm what had happened, and so there was plenty of time for it to happen again. I filed a complaint, but my vote is null and void. Not pleased, to say the least, I feel like apart of my citizenship was taken away.

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[info]auros
2008-02-08 06:02 pm UTC (link)
Almost certainly not.

The parties have a 1st Amendment right to Free Association. California tried to get an "open primary" where anyone could vote in any party, regardless of registration, and the Supreme Court smacked that down. The parties have the right to limit their primary to only their membership, so long as membership is free -- you join by registering in the party. As an olive branch, the CA parties offered the system we have now -- they can choose, each primary, whether to permit DTS voters to vote in their primaries. (The GOP subsequently passed a party by-law that forbids their executives from approving DTS voters for their presidential races, whereas the Dems passed a by-law saying that DTS voters are always welcome in every Dem primary. Tells you something about the relative polarization of the parties: the CA Dems are quite moderate overall -- rather more moderate than their electorate, IMHO -- whereas the CA GOP lives in Cloud-Cuckoo-Land, and if their voters ever figured that out they'd defect to DTS or Libertarian en masse.)

In any case, both parties have quite specifically said they will not accept voters who are registered in a different party to vote in their primaries. The reason for this is that they don't want to deal with a situation where, say, the Dem race is uncontested, so creative Dems cross over at the last minute to the GOP primary to vote for the guy they think is easier to beat. If you want to participate in a party's primary, register for that party. If you like a minor party, join a major one and lobby your major-party representatives to support Approval, Range, and Condorcet voting, as well as for Proportional Representation under any voting system.

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[info]vvvexation
2008-02-08 09:53 pm UTC (link)
Or, join the minor party and then switch over to the major one for just a few months every four years.

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[info]jrtom
2008-02-08 05:23 pm UTC (link)
It shouldn't even be necessary to do a hand-count. Take the existing vote-counting software. Comment out the code that checks the state of the "Democratic" bubble. Recompile and feed the ballots through again. The nature of the change should make it trivial to certify (or at least it would be if the code were open-source).

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[info]ef2p
2008-02-08 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Unfortunately the 'certification' procedure is something like 3 different organizations that want 3 months to do.

Also if you go that route, you need to make sure they didn't vote in a second presidential primary because that would be an 'overvote' and wouldn't count.

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[info]jrtom
2008-02-08 06:58 pm UTC (link)
Hadn't known the certification process was that involved, although I suppose I should have guessed that it would be.

As for overvotes...that's already an issue, is it not? I mean, whatever voting mechanism you have in place, there has to be a way to make sure that Joe Blow can't vote in two different primaries, or two different locations for the same primary.

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[info]auros
2008-02-08 07:31 pm UTC (link)
An overvote usually means "voting two candidates in the same race", which actually ought to be legal. Ceasing to throw out overvotes means converting to Approval Voting, which is a better system for single-winner-elections than plurality -- in fact, it's my favorite system for single-winne, because it's better than everything simpler, and simpler than everything better.

But, if you did an N-P ballot listing multiple primary races (e.g. Dem and AIP) you would still want to make sure the voter understood that his vote in the presidential primary would get tossed if he voted in multiple different parties' races. That special case of "overvoting" violates the deal the parties made with the state.

Edited at 2008-02-08 07:32 pm UTC

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[info]jrtom
2008-02-08 08:28 pm UTC (link)
I'm also fond of approval voting, either by itself or as a "gateway drug" to Condorcet. :)

It sounds to me as though giving out party-specific ballots (and letting a voter submit no more than one) would be a more robust solution than giving them a ballot that they could screw up (by making choices that are mutually incompatible). Rule #1 of interfaces: don't lightly give the user the ability to make a mistake. :)

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[info]plymouth
2008-02-08 10:20 pm UTC (link)
That's what we did in Santa Clara County... and most other counties around the state. Actually, if that illustration on the courage campaign's website is undoctored, that's what LA did too - they just, for some inexplicable reason, required the N-P voters to fill that ballot out differently. http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/counteveryvote
This makes NO SENSE to me - I mean, how is the machine even going to know it has an N-P ballot unless that bubble is filled in? There must be something missing from that picture.

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[info]bostorus
2008-02-08 06:08 pm UTC (link)
I signed the petition, but the editorial also says:


Registrar Logan now has said that the county will look at the 94,500 uncounted ballots to see if they can "clearly identify the voters' intent." A clear mark for a presidential candidate should be enough.


Is this the same thing as their counting them?

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[info]auros
2008-02-08 06:11 pm UTC (link)
Well, note that the quote ends before the last sentence -- the last bit is the opinion of that author. We'll see whether the registrar agrees. Remember, in San Diego County it was decided by the registrar and a judge that writing in "Donna Fry" was not a clear enough indication of intending to vote for "Donna Frye", nor was writing in "Donna Frye" but failing to fill the write-in bubble. It's entirely possible that the LA registrar will similarly play dumb -- the entire party establishment in LA endorsed the candidate who will be disadvantaged if they count those votes.

Edited at 2008-02-08 06:12 pm UTC

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[info]amberckerr
2008-02-09 02:50 am UTC (link)

Thanks for the petition link - I signed it and passed it on to a half-dozen people with whom I volunteered on Tuesday. It seems beyond belief that the Registrar would not end up counting half the DTS ballots. With that level of confusion, it's clearly the Registrar's fault and not the voters' fault. (Similarly, if 50% of your students fail a test that you set them, you have only yourself to blame... Why do some maths and physics teachers not understand that?)

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